Fighting Fatigue

JoeHammer

JoeHammer

Vet
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
101
Whats up guys, i have a problem i hope some of you can help me with:

So my routine is set up as Push/Pull. Mon/Wed/Fri- its working great and since christmas im up 8lbs. Diet is on point and im getting stronger all the time...EXCEPT on the exercises at the end of the push workouts. let me break it down

Push:
DB Flys (was flat BB Bench but hit plateau)
Seated BB shoulder Press
Close Grip Flat Bench
Squats

My bench was going up nicely then after about 10 weeks the strength stalled out and nothing i could do changed it, so i substituted the multi joing exercise for a single joint exercise to focus more on the chest and leave the delts/tris out of it. For now my fly's are going up nicely. im happy

Now, because of the change my shoulder press has also gone up significantly! mainly because my tri's/delts are not pre-exhausted from the flys. Very happy there.

My flat close grip bench has SUFFERED from these changes. I can feel that my tris and the inserts for the pectorals on my arms/armpits are totally exhausted. Just trying to bring the weight down (that i was previously repping) makes my arms/outer chest feel like jelly and they have even given out on me mid rep.

WTF lol it would appear that the heavier i go with shoulder presses the worse my close grip bench gets. now i leave 5 mins between exercises and 1-2 mins between sets. i get plenty of rest. What can i do to improve muscle endurance (if that is the problem)?

cheers
JH
 
You can get a supplement to help combat lactic acid. You should check your form out, you might use more of your shoulders when doing that exercise. Also are you taking anything that will increase a pump? A pump might cause fatigue also.
 
Endurance isn't the issue here dude. The issue is the sequence of your exercises. Typically, the larger bdpt of a chain (1-pecs, 2-delts, 3-tri's in this case) should be worked first (unless prioritizing or addressing an injury, but thats a different topic). However, you swapped out bench for flyes. Being that flyes is isolation and your other exercises are compounds, you should do flyes last now, not first. Flyes primarily target the outer pecs, and thats exactly where you are feeling it as stated in your post. Essentially, you are doing a pre-exhaust - your pecs are worn out and its reflective in your cg's. Do flyes last and see - I'm betting you will be happy with the result.

Just to add, not withstanding the topic of flyes, it is indeed normal to see your cg suffer after doing militarys. Thats why I have never liked push/pull. I mean you can't expect your weight for tri's to rock after busting ass on chest and delts. One can't expect weights for curls to rock after doing back. I prefer to do back & bis on seperate days, as well as doing chest & delts on seperate days. Shit if I do bi's after back, I'm using 55lb db's for curls, otherwise I'm using 70's...fuck that haha! To each their own. :)
 
Dog is right on here.
If you want a big bench you have to focus on bench. If you want to look like a model on a magazine cover then you do what you are doing.
For chest all I do is flat bench then inclines.
I used to do flies, cable cross-overs, incline d-bell presses etc. But at this point I'm still growing as an old man (for our sport) and getting stronger each week or two.
Bottom line, if you're going to do chest, work chest and do your compound movements first. If you are training arms do arms, etc.
I know a lot of experience on this board and there will be varying opinions, but what I am doing works great for me.
 
Dawgpound_Hank said:
Endurance isn't the issue here dude. The issue is the sequence of your exercises. Typically, the larger bdpt of a chain (1-pecs, 2-delts, 3-tri's in this case) should be worked first (unless prioritizing or addressing an injury, but thats a different topic). However, you swapped out bench for flyes. Being that flyes is isolation and your other exercises are compounds, you should do flyes last now, not first. Flyes primarily target the outer pecs, and thats exactly where you are feeling it as stated in your post. Essentially, you are doing a pre-exhaust - your pecs are worn out and its reflective in your cg's. Do flyes last and see - I'm betting you will be happy with the result.

Just to add, not withstanding the topic of flyes, it is indeed normal to see your cg suffer after doing militarys. Thats why I have never liked push/pull. I mean you can't expect your weight for tri's to rock after busting ass on chest and delts. One can't expect weights for curls to rock after doing back. I prefer to do back & bis on seperate days, as well as doing chest & delts on seperate days. Shit if I do bi's after back, I'm using 55lb db's for curls, otherwise I'm using 70's...fuck that haha! To each their own. :)
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this. I like chest and bis, back and triceps. I usually do shoulders and legs and then a legs only day. Sometimes I do an arm only workout. But push pull on the same day with one large and one small muscle group.
 
Another thing is food. If you're stalled, even if you think it's limited to triceps, you probably need to up the food intake so you can recover more fully. How much protein are you talking in? A lot of guys ball park guess, which is usually bull crap. I say get at least 300 g a day.
 
thanks guys: The order of exercise is worth switching around to see how thigns change. I have been doing push/pull for about 2 years now (with varying exercises); perhaps it is time for a change to a more conventional split.

Food is not an issue, i've been slamming on good weight fast since christmas, im eating at least 1.5lbs of ground beef/seafood a day- that alone puts me at about 200g of protien, not to mention the bread/nuts/oatmeal/black beans/eggs/bacon/sausage i eat with it all- and a shake on lift days. Im definately over 275g consistantly every day, some days easily over 300g from food alone.

I know Arnie always liked a chest/back bi's/tri's shoulders/legs kind of workout- i have his BB bible ill have another read and check back with everyone to look at a new plan

thanks again
 
well i was gonna suggest run your workout backwards once a month or two. start with your finishing movements and work to compound just confuse the hell out of the muscle. i've always done back with wide to inside progression (start with wide grip pulups and finish with bent over rows) watched the blood and guts dorian yates thing and he started with rows then progressed to wide. fucking awesome pump but only works for me every 3rd or 4th workout.


glyco, first ive heard of push\pull on same day. no issues with over training??
 
personally i make every effore to prevent ever going in the next week and repeating exactley what i did the week before. gotta keep your body guessing at all times
 
I've been doing the same basic routine for several years and still responding well.
There is much more to the equation than simply training in my experience.
 
I had laid off the weights for a while due to personal stuff a while back. I had always ran one body part per day. When I went back I started a routine with 2bodyparts. It was great at first but it was a little while before I could not hit the bigger lifts like I was before the layoff. I switched back to one per day and bam everything started moving up again.

It think everyone is different and respond differently as pointed out. Might be worth a try to isolate and hit it way harder. That's what works best for me. I know plenty of great dudes that do two body parts successfully. Just worth a try tho.
 
Ok after thinking about all your great responses ive come up with this plan:

Workout 1: chest/back:
1)Flat BB bench press
2)Incline BB bench press
3)DB pullover
4)Lat Pulldowns
5)T-Bar Rows
6)Deadlifts

workout 2: shoulders/arms
1)seated BB shoulder press
2)Upright BB Rows
3)Lateral DB raise
4)Standing BB Curls
5) Seated DB curls
6)Close grip Bench
7)Standing BB tricep extentions

workout 3: Legs/lower back
1)squats
2)hack squats
3) leg curls
4)straight leg deads
5) BB goodmornings
6)Standing BB Calf raises

I will lift 4 times a week with varying days off in-between, which is why i went with workout1/2/3 instead of monday/wed/fri etc. so each body part twice every week and a half basically. Its 4 sets per exercise, aiming for 15 reps, 10reps, 6 reps, 4 reps-increasing the weight as i go

what do you guys think?
 
You must go light on back and chest. I'm worn out from 3 exercises of just back. Maybe I'm using too much weight...? :D
 
If you are hitting the gym 4x per week, much better to hit a large bdpt followed with a smaller bdpt IMO. Chest & back is a shitload to do in 1 workout, assuming you are giving it your all.

Btw, when you refer to Arnie, he was in a league of his own concerning recovery & growth. Also, bb was his way of life and had all the time in the world to focus on it. Not many can say that.
 
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